Stephanie: Hey Mark, welcome to 40 drinks.

Marc: Thanks for having me, Stephanie. It's great to be here.

Stephanie: It's my pleasure. I started that way today specifically. Welcome to 40 drinks. Usually I just say thanks for being here. But one of the things that you and I identified it when we first chatted was that you started getting hangovers at 35.

Marc: Oh man. It's like rubbing salt in the wound. Yeah.

Stephanie: I know, I know.

Not

Marc: that I never had a hangover before 35. In my 20s and in my college years, I grew up in a very, like, strict household. I was very focused on school education. When I went off to college, suddenly I didn't have any rules.

And I, and I, and I did, I would say get into drinking. I didn't really know where the limit was. I was fortunate enough to find that limit and I didn't become an alcoholic, but also I'd gotten a hangover or two. But at 35 suddenly, you know,I'd be working and at that time I was doing a lot of artwork. You know, five six o'clock it'd be like the end of the day.

Let's chill out I'd have my glass of whiskey one rock, you know, really just kind of loved it just so. And even with just one glass and sometimes it was two, I'd wake up the next day feeling a little like just that, that kind of, like a twinge kind of like, it wasn't, it wasn't like I woke up and I was like, oh my God, I regret my life.

But just sort of like, I'm not really at full capacity right now.

Stephanie: To me, it was, and I always got hangovers. I was very similar to you. Very strict growing up, went to college, started drinking. Very quickly, went pro and stayed pro for a long time. But it was like, just as soon as I started drinking like a reasonable person, I started getting hangovers for just that, like, the one or two glasses of wine with dinner, or the one cocktail, for happy hour kind of thing. I was like, oh, for crying out loud.

Marc: Yeah. And it's not that it wasn't manageable, but it was also around that time. And I've been doing, personal growth work, broad strokes for 10, 12 years, you know, I've been doing it for a while at that time.

And, you know, just sort of got to a point where I'm like, am I holding myself back in some way. Now look. I still think,booze is great, cocktails are having a real heyday right now, especially. You know, I'll have a sip of my wife's drink if it's tasty, but I don't, you know, I don't, I don't have a drink. And the times that I have, I like, there was an article ages ago, I wish I could find it, you can probably Google it, but it was a guy who wrote about the 12 step programs and just mostly how he was like, I just don't really buy into this. It's great for some people, they need the structure, but it's like, I don't buy the idea that if I have, you know, if I go out for drinks one night that I'm like resetting the clock, you know, back to zero. And he said, I call it research, not relapse, which I really, really liked. Or maybe I just wanted to like it. But you know, I have had a drink in the last, seven years and I have not at any point gone, that enhanced my experience in such a way that I'm willing to give up my sleep and all the other things that start to happen when you are pushing 40, past 40. It's a terrible thing to realize that, taking care of your health is actually good for you.

Stephanie: I know, it's so funny. I like research versus relapse. Within the last year, I was down in Boston with my best friend who was my biggest drinking buddy for many years. He's now in recovery and I don't know, I think we'd gone out to an event and afterwards we were like, let's just go to one of our old haunts, just for the fun of it. It was a Saturday night. We're feeling the energy. And we walked in the place with stuff. Crazy slammed and, uh, this young girl came up and started chatting with us and we both have, sparkling water in our hands. And she sort of said something about a drink and I, I said something and my best friend goes, no, no, no, she's retired and I'm recovering.

Marc: You said you went pro and now you're, you know, now you're retired.

Stephanie: Now I'm retired. I'm retired. Yeah.

Marc: Yeah, I mean, there's just no big payout at the end when you, except for, you know, except for your, not tired or as tired. I mean, that's the other thing is like, how much of this is just, I'm, you know, I'm pushing 40 and how much is actually what I'm, what are we doing?

I was, we had a friend over, who's visiting from California. She comes here once a year for climate week and we get the annual visit, which is awesome. It's like a little, you know, tradition we have and we'll have lunch at our house. And we were just sort of talking about like, all these things that start to happen, hopefully, you know, not until you're older, but we were talking about some things that have happened to people when they were younger.

And you're like, do I need to go see a doctor am I just 40? Is this chronic fatigue? Should I be worried? Or like, am I just tired?

Stephanie: Oh, oh, the indignities of getting older for sure. For sure. Oh, let's go back though, cause I, I sort of started us off on a weird direction, which I love. but tell me a little bit about, the forces that shaped you to be who that guy was at 35. You know, when you started getting hangovers and then coming up to 40, who were you?

Marc: Yeah, it's a good question. And just, I want to put it in context because something I think about a lot, I know there's a framework for this and I know someone invented it and I just can't think of who, but, there's this idea that we kind of live our lives in cycles and, you know, maybe it's like a woo thing.

I don't know, but it really kind of fits my narrative. You know, about, about every seven years, I go through some sort of change professionally, personally. And you know, you can almost think about it like when you're growing up like, you know, zero to seven is kind of like a stage, seven to fourteen in some ways is another stage, 14 to 21 is definitely another. You know for me, I grew up in Boston, Brookline just out, you know on the on the train, you know for those who are keeping score.

But you know, I also went to school in Boston. I went to Harvard, so I didn't go very far. So here I am, spent 21, 22 years. I was ready to go somewhere. So here's that seven year itch, so to speak. And I go to California and now I'm also trying to be an adult and I'm, paying rent and, trying to figure out, who I am as an adult, as opposed to, not out of the house, you know, but not that far from the house.

And still like my parents paid for school. Thank you parents. And so here I, like, it's another stage. And, you know, that stage was a time of huge change for me. It's where I first got introduced to this kind of personal growth, where you can be like, what does that even mean?

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Marc: That seven years was a really big shift for me. You know, I did not grow up in a family that was very, introspective. My dad's a pediatrician. My mom, pretty much was a stay at home mom. She was a nurse when she met my dad.

But, you know, very focused on like you get your career and you do this thing there's like a path that you're sort of supposed to take, but things were really changing. This is the late nineties, remember? So the idea that you did any one thing for a very long time was really getting turned on its head.

In fact, my first, I want to say three years. You know, I had four or five different jobs because again, this is the first tech crash. So through no fault of my own, I kept joining companies that three months later would go under, and I would, be on to the next one. I was very lucky and I could sometimes read the writing on the wall and get to the next thing. And, you know, but at some point. I had the opportunity and went back to art school. So this is, this is a time of great change. There's that, that takes you through what, 28? So the next seven years to 35. There's some parts of my life that have kind of settled down. I was part of a, a men's circle in San Francisco, that was a really grounding, you know, very educational, very grounding. This is where I first really got introduced to people who were coaches,

Stephanie: Yep.

Marc: You know, and, this is literally 20 years ago. You know, it's the first time I walked out and, you know, onto the beach with this group. And, you know, I was also doing some other work.

I was then, you know, living in a community of friends that I loved, and we threw events. Some of them were illegal. We go to Burning Man and build, these big camps. And it was like this beautiful time of my own growth, of developing these friendships, and also meeting my wife, who was a part of that community, and moving to New York.

Between, 28 and 35, I met my wife. I moved to New York where she was. We had a kid. And so here I am at 35. My wife is sort of working her way through legal fellowships at this point.

We're sort of finding our feet here in New York And there's not as much like, everything could change, like I could move, I could do. Like I have a kid. I'm not probably just moving because of a job or anything else.

So there's there's more roots, right? 35, I've got more roots and I think with that there's also more of a sense of like well How do I take care of, myself, because I, you know, I want to, I want to be around for this kid. First of all, you know, that's a big thing. But I also want to be around for myself and you start to feel your, you know, there are changes that start to happen.

You are a little more tired and cuts don't heal as. I remember when I was like, I, when I turned 40, it was like almost like right when I turned 40, I had like a cut on my finger. I forget, you know, it was a little thing. And I remember looking down and it was still there two weeks later. I'm like, that's weird. This should be gone by now. Likein my twenties, you're like, Oh, I have a cut. That'll be gone, you know, by the weekend. Right. But like two weeks later, I'm like, I'm still wearing a bandaid on this. That's crazy. But yeah, you know, I think, I think there was a little bit of that and not everybody like follows that path and has those roots and settles down and whatever.

But I think there's also something biological that's like, okay, so, you did a whole bunch of stuff that your body was able to take care of. And now, how, like, what's your long term plan? What's your marathon plan? How are you, how are you going to be doing this?

Stephanie: Yeah. And that comes at different times. I mean, for me, I didn't start getting grounded and calm until I was about 40. And I didn't have kids and I had strings of terrible romantic relationships. And was very extroverted and very much in the business community, in the social community, and like always out and doing things and very active and vibrant. And similarly had a big group of friends that we would, plan events and weekends and trips and, all this stuff.

But it wasn't until I was 40 that I started to really kind of feel a little bit more grounded in myself and some of that external stuff started to fall away because looking back, it was almost compulsive. The outness, the being out and the doing things and the events and the happy hours is in the socials, you know, all of that stuff.

So yeah, I definitely felt a little bit of that too. And in a little bit of a different way. that grounding that settling, not settling for like not settling for the wrong thing, but

Marc: right, not

Stephanie: into

Marc: into,

I mean, we obviously have two very different experiences in terms of, like, family structure, right? so, I think what I'm

Stephanie: some commonality in experience.

Marc: Right, and that's so interesting right. Because I think I think there's something that someone might assume is like well, he's a dad, you know. And so like obviously things slow down. But at the same time, I think there's something. You've read about this. I've read about this. But there's there's something that kind of happens when you're hitting midlife, where you start to think about, you have a conscious experience of the last 20 or 30 years. Maybe, you know, not the first 10 or 15, maybe. You don't remember that. But I remember most of the things that happened, between say 20 and almost 48. And I can say, oh, well if I remember that much, well I could sort of think about what the next 30 years looks like and actually have a concept of how much time that is.

And I could actually do something about that. I think, something that happens is we start to think whether we like it or not about kind of what could we create long term. And that's a very confronting thing. And I think one of the outcomes, which I love that, that you've had, it sounds like, and I still, you know, I think we're all still working on this, but, is that kind of like, okay,how do I sustain this? Because, because something else is like, I don't go party all night every weekend. I don't do a lot of the things that I was able to do in my twenties. And I don't want to. completely be like, well, I'm done with that. Like, I still want to go and go to campouts with my friends. I still want to, go out and get out of the house and do these things.

It's harder now. And some of that is just me. And some of it is the age thing. But, like I started, and anyone who knows me is going to laugh because they know exactly what I'm going to say is I started jujitsu at age 41.

Stephanie: Even I

Marc: aboutI think it's like this really fantastic thing and I love starting something new like that and really developing a strong practice around it.

And I say strong practice. that's not like I'm the best at it. I'm not, I'm factually not. but my practice is strong. I show up and having something new like that, like I, I'm sort of looking forward to, you know, my early fifties and I'm like, okay, so, other than jujitsu, which I probably hopefully will just continue until my body completely breaks. But like is there another thing that I might be a total beginner at which is like that's something that really feeds me. I love being in those spaces where i'm kind of like well, I haven't done this before I wonder if I could you know figure it out.I mean the whole title of this thing was like a project that came out of something like that

Stephanie: Right. Right. And it's interesting too, because I love that you picked up jujitsu at that time. I picked up aerial circus, aerial silks when I was about 41.

Which is a, like a weird time to do that. Like the people who are doing it are usually much, much younger. But I grew up in a ballet studio and, there was something about the silks that was, that had a very, commonality with the ballet that I grew up in.

And I loved it for, for many years. I did it for many years until I got sick to the point where I couldn't do it anymore, but, I loved it. And to your point, I was not very good at it. but I showed up because I loved it. It was, it felt good in my, like in my heart. It didn't feel good in my body cause it was very hard, but it felt very good in my heart.

And so that was really fulfilling. But also, as a small business owner, it was the kind of thing where I had to be 150 percent present, or else I would drop myself on my head. So you couldn't be thinking about, something that, someone on your team did, or one of your clients did, or the job you didn't get, or the job you did get, and now you got a plan for it. Like you just had to be 150 percent present on the silks, or otherwise you're going to hurt yourself really bad.

Marc: Right. Or in my case, somebody's going to choke you unconscious, but

Stephanie: Well, there's that,

Marc: Right,

Stephanie: But one of the things I love about Jiu Jitsu is that it comes about as part of this 40 transition. Will you tell me the story of like how you got into jujitsu and why?

Marc: Forget if I told you all the, details

Stephanie: told me some of them, but I think it's part of this transition. So I, love this.

Marc: It, it is in a way. I want to ask you about the ballet thing because you kind of like skirted past that. So my, my kids were doing jujitsu and I could not tell you why we were having them do jujitsu. There was a school in Brooklyn that was like a very popular school for kids and we were like, they need an activity. It's close to school. Okay, we'll just do that. It was a little bit of a pain in the ass to get to. Around this time, they'd been doing jujitsu for, a little while and, it was that time that I was basically threatened on the street a couple of times.

There's one time that these three construction workers were walking by my house, literally right in front of my house. And they started catcalling this lady who's walking the other way. And I kind of was like, guys, don't, don't do that. And they were like, what? And then I, I ran into them on my, I was going for a run and I ran into them on the way back. And I made the mistake of trying to talk to them again because I don't know what's wrong with me. And I wanted them to know, like, I don't think they're bad people. And they were like, I think his words were, I'm about to punch you through this parked car.

And the only thing I had in my toolkit at that point was the words, please don't. So, fortunately, he did not and, I walked away unscathed. But, it was around that same time I had another incident with this dad at my school. I come home one day and we had someone who was picking up our daughter and bringing her home from school. She comes home, I come home and I see her and she's like visibly like shaking and I'm like, whoa, what's, like something is going on, what happened? And she told me that this guy, this dad at school, really ripped into her, really let it. And I was like, that's not cool. I will talk to him and find. So I went and I was like, Hey, like my nanny was like, pretty freaked out the other day. Can you want to tell me what happened? And he went like, full on like white dude mansplaining. He's like, oh, well, you gotta understand like what my day was like. I'm, like I don't have to understand what your day was like. That was not appropriate. But he like mansplained to me and in the process of doing this he was also telling me about how he practices jujitsu, which is a very weird flex in that kind of conversation I realized later.

But I you know me just the way my mind operates, I was like, Oh, you do. Wait, is that close by. So I switched my kids to this school. So now I'm going by this school all the time. And the owner is really nice. And at one point, the construction thing happened and he was like, you should try a class. You should just try a class.

And he told me, he's like, look, Learning this is not going to necessarily make you better in a street fight. It's going to help you stay out of the street fights. And I knew what he meant even at the time, but as I've gotten deeper and deeper into the practice, I don't think it's any more complicated than like, you just get really good at leaving your ego at the door. You know, someone wants to fight me in the street, I'm going to walk away. Or I'm just going to avoid you. I don't feel like less of anything to be like, I'm going to walk around that. I'm going to not engage that.

Stephanie: I have this vivid picture in my head. Are you a fan of Gross Point Blank, the movie?

Marc: Oh yeah.

yeah. Certain, certain moral flexibility.

Stephanie: In the, but the, John Cusack in the hallway when the big bully comes up at him and, and like starts like, like, you and me, man, we're gonna, you know, I'm gonna, we're gonna fight, and, and he goes, Listen, there is no you and me. Like he just diffused it so easily by just saying like whatever's in your head doesn't exist. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at with that ego piece.

Marc: I mean, there's if you are in this practice, I. Look, people do it all kinds of ways. I know that there's people out there who are doing, MMA and they have big and like fine and you see some of them on TV. But I think my experience in, the schools that I've been a part of is that for the most part when you find your crew, like that goes away.

It kind of has to, I mean, one of my favorite things is to work with people and I have, I'm a purple belt now. So I'm like, you know, I know some things. And I'll work with blue belts and white belts and we're just sort of like, okay, well, let's explore like, yes, maybe I could, you know, tap. Or maybe they could like crush me 15 times, but that's not interesting. We're not there to do that. We're not a school that's really focused on competition, but we have a lot of people who do compete, we're also there to learn. And that's what I love about this activity or, you know, like you with the fabric, with the circus stuff.

Stephanie: Like, I don't imagine that you joined it and you were like, I'm going to go join Cirque du Soleil. Like, I don't think, right? No. Oh, no. As a matter of fact, when I first started and this is, I mean, this in the silliest way possible. You know, one of the earliest things they do is, you tie the silk in a knot. So you've basically got something that's, a "U" there, right. And you put it around your waist and then you tip yourself back and you put your legs out wide and you hang upside down. And it's sort of one of the very earliest things that you

And it's lovely. But I used to say, my fat hurts because you are all of your weight. A hundred percent of your weight is being held by whatever size spare tire you.

Marc: spare tire.

Stephanie: Yeah, and then, you know, after a couple of weeks, it's like, it's not quite so bad, right? It's like anything else, you acclimate to the different pain, I guess, to the, but to the different movements.

Marc: But I'm sure that's the ego diffuser on whatever

Stephanie: time, big time. Like no, no matter how good you think you are when you walk in the door, like you tilt back into your first straddle back and you go, Oh, Oh,

Marc: Are you still doing that or no?

Stephanie: I'm not, I haven't, I've been, managing a couple of chronic illnesses for a few years and I just haven't had the strength to go back. I

Marc: the other, thing that happens. Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah, I would love to go back someday. that is a goal of mine is to get back someday and get back in those silks and have some fun. Cause boy, did I love it.

Marc: I mean, so I started at 40 and even when I started at 41, I still felt like, I had a lot of energy and I was like, You know, I was a spazzy white belt. that's what we call them, right? Like, I had a lot of energy and I was like trying to get out of like all this stuff and combination of age and experience but definitely, you know, I have to like, you know, you saw me probably just put down my heating pad because I've injured my knee.

Nobody else injured it. I did something that was a totally fine move actually and my knee was like not today. And also you're screwed for a couple of weeks. So, you know, I'm nursing this injury and so, here's the thing: I want to keep doing this and so I have to find ways to do it. Like, I can't do it the way that I was doing it even at 41. That was seven years ago. Like, I can't do it that way. So I have to find ways emotionally and physically, but it's a lot of, you know, a lot of it, I think for people is emotionally, it's like, you know, you see a lot of people kind of leave Jiu Jitsu or, you know, these other things, but not because of, physical stuff necessarily, but because they are getting older. They can't do it exactly the way they were doing it. And so they sort of quit altogether.

Stephanie: Yeah. The reality no longer meets their expectation

Stephanie: they thought.

Marc: this, kind of gets into some of the mindset and coaching stuff that I do, but there is a very real tendency that I've seen with a lot of people, creatives or activists, people who are working to make a better world, broad strokes. Is that, you know, if I can't quite get it exactly the way that I want it, then it's not worth doing. And I say that's a bunch of bs.

I just think because as we get older, you know, we're gonna there's maybe there's some things that we're going to be able to do better and better. But also there's going to be some things that like, you know, like I don't have the energy. Like I used to, sleep, you know, not very much. And I have all these projects and I could stay up. I would pay for it. I'd be a very, not very nice person. I'd likely be divorced. You know, I'd be estranged from my kids. Like I would be, it would be bad. I'm at a stage of my life in the past, especially the past couple of years. Again, about to be 48. So, I'm optimizing for sleep in my life right now. Thatall I'm trying to, you know, absolutely like be the best at what I do in as much as I can in the world of coaching, in the world of jujitsu.

Like I am being my personal best, which is not to say the best, but like my personal best. And in order to do that, I optimize for sleep. That's it.

Stephanie: Yeah. And it's interesting, right? Cause it's, about priorities shifting and it's about, you know, this transition that we go through at midlife in our twenties and our thirties, our priorities are all about, the things we've been told we should do, right?

We should go to college. We should get a degree, a good job. We should get a career. We should build a relationship. We should get married We should, we should, we should. And so we put much of our time and energy and intention around just going down that path and working, working, working, digging.

And then what happens here at midlife is, we actually pick our head up and realize like, Oh, I've been working so hard on all the things I was supposed to be doing and this is where I got and this is all there is. And why aren't I happier? Why aren't I more fulfilled? And so our priorities shift.

Marc: a very smart person told me I think the other week that you realize that you are your own authority

Stephanie: yeah,

Marc: That was Stephanie, you guys.

Stephanie: You're so kind. That's what, just so we know that is when I was on Mark's podcast

Marc: Coming soon. Coming soon. Hopefully be out. But that's really what I hear is that you realize I am the boss of me. not because you want to be, but because that's just how it works.

Stephanie: Once you take control of your own life, you take the reins, you stop following some pre prescribed pathway and really dig into what it is that's important to you and what you value and what you want things start changing a lot. The whole playing field changes,

Marc: How do you find out? I mean, I have some ideas certainly, but like, this is a question I get a lot. Like, You know, I'll ask people what they want, and they're like, I don't know. Like, how do you find out, especially if you're also dealing with whatever feelings you're having about, like, not having figured it out, which I think are also made up, but, how do you figure out what it is that you want at this stage of life, which is obviously a very big question for a lot of people.

Stephanie: If I knew the answer to that question, Mark, I would have the million dollars already. No, it, I'm being a little flip.

One of the things that happens during this period, when we pick the head up and we realize I'm not as happy as they told me I would be, I'm not as fulfilled. I'm, I don't want this. We can detach ourselves from those expectations and from those pathways and those shoulds. And once we do that, I think, what I've heard a lot of in all the interviews I've done is, is there becomes awareness, right? And awareness is very much the first step. This thing isn't working well, this thing isn't going well. So that's, that's on the, on the one hand.

On the other hand, we start either hearing for the first time, or tuning back into the little voices inside our bodies. Sometimes it's in our head, sometimes it's in our gut, sometimes it's a feeling, some people get it visually. Um,intuition, instinct. Voices, I'll call them voices, will say things to us that sound really scary because they are not the prescribed path.

They are, they are something different. And for me, I know that period of time where I started to become more grounded and I wasn't going out quite as much and I wasn't filling the hole with all this activity and, and sensory input, I was able to hear more and tune in a little bit more. And so really starting to listen to those voices.

They're not going to steer you wrong. So whether it says, you know, go for the promotion, don't go for the promotion. Or whether it says blow up your career and start something different. Right. And it's, it's different for everybody, whether it's, whether it's blowing something up or, or just making, you know, course corrections. And it depends on how much we've been paying attention to date.

Marc: Yeah. Something that you touched on, I think, so there's this thing called the formula for change and it was invented by. I'm going to forget who, but it was a business concept.

Uh,and it was popularized in the eighties by a, woman professor or something, kind of forget all the names I wrote about it somewhere. You can Google it. I didn't make it up. There's this idea that If we want to make any kind of change, and we're talking about transformational change, change in our careers, our personal lives, sort of any aspect of your life wheel, so to speak.

And the formula kind of goes like this, if you want to make a change in your life, you're probably going to encounter resistance, that resistance can look like, actual logistics, like moving or getting a new job, like there's things that you have to do that are in the way.

Or just your own inner resistance. The voice is saying you're not good enough or you have imposter syndrome or just stick to where it's safe. You have this resistance and in order to make a change, you have to overcome resistance. You have to have something that's bigger than the resistance, basically.

And there's a lot of different frameworks for thinking about this that work for different people. You know, one is, if I want to move away from something, a crappy job, relationship, whatever, it's often not enough to just be like, I don't want that.

Stephanie: Right.

Marc: So what, one way of overcoming resistance, this is not the formula for change, is to create, is to create something for yourself on the other side. What am I moving to?

Stephanie: It's always easier to, and again, I did this a lot in my 20s, right? It's always easier to leave a job when there's something. You know, when you have one, you know, when there's like a better thing that you're moving to. But the formula for change works a little differently, and there's a few indicators and ingredients, and it's a very simple formula.

Marc: What you need is you need some amount of discomfort, dissatisfaction, right? I don't really like where this is. I don't like how this feels in my body. I don't, you know, whatever. You need some sort of vision for the future. Now that could be as simple as a small thing like a vision for how happy you are at work or a different kind of relationship, or even a different kind of relating within your relationship.

Like all these things can be part of a vision. Oftentimes when people ask how do I create a vision, I say, you know, think about whatever future time, three months, 12 months, and really think about what you're thinking, feeling and

Stephanie: doing.

Right. Mm hmm.

Marc: Right. It's your vision. There's no judgment. Do whatever you want. So anyway, you have discomfort, dissatisfaction, you have a vision, and you need some small first steps. You need a way to start. Without all three of those ingredients, it's very easy to let the resistance sort of take over. I could be, I mean, how many people do we know who are miserable and talk about it all the time but don't do anything about it?

They don't, maybe they're missing a vision. Maybe they're missing a first step. So, when you're talking about, When you were just telling that story, what I heard is like that sort of level of dissatisfaction. That's often the first indicator. And if you are paying attention, if you are in the practice of even just noticing, whether you journal or do a daily check in at the end of the day, or if you meditate or if you don't, I don't meditate.

Like if you don't meditate, if you're just like, take time to, I get a couple of nice moments to myself when I'm going to and from, dropping off my kid at school, and I'm on my little electric scooter, and I'm going through the park. This is my moment to just be like, wow, let me just sort of let the thoughts unspool.

And that's oftentimes for me, a time of great sort of right brain connection and visioning.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Marc: I'm getting a little long in the tooth on this one, but that for you made me think about that formula for change. And if those, if any of those steps sound hard, especially vision or first steps, that's where getting support, whether you're paying for a coach or just have a good friend who really gets you and you can sort of talk through some of these things.

And if you're open to exploring that, that's the really scary thing though. That's the thing that most people get scared off by is that if I start to look at this stuff, I'm going to have to change.

Stephanie: I had friend, a mentor, a psychic many years ago who in a similar situation said, the positive of the future has to be, bigger than the discomfort of whatever rut you're in. A rut can be really comfortable and it can also be really irritating and we can want to change, but the rut is real deep. And so you, the other side has got to be, more attractive than however comfortable that rut is.

Marc: Yeah. And that's, a really good way of thinking about it. So when you're coming up with the vision, it doesn't have to be big like you want to change the world, but it has to be something you really, there has to be something in there that you really want.

Stephanie: Yeah, it's gotta be attractive to you. It's gotta be motivating to you

Marc: And then, the thing about those, you also need a way to start. Because we, you know, oh, I really wish that my life were, like this. Yeah. Okay. Well, how are you going to start? And again, it doesn't have to be, people are always like, I'll build this and I'll do this, and I'll start this.

And I'm like, no, no, no. Like when I talk about first steps, this is another thing that I think is really important for people to understand when they're like, I want to make a change. When I talk about first steps with my clients and my group work, I'm like, a first step is something that you can do that doesn't require anybody else, in about 20 minutes or less. And they're like, What are you talking about 20 minutes? I'm like, I'm talking about sending an email. I'm talking about making a list of gyms near you. I'm talking about sitting and, you know, doing an idea or mood board or making a piece of art. Like, that's what I'm talking about with First Steps.

Because it has to be, first of all, it has to be easy. James Clear, author of Atomic Habits, would also argue, and I agree that it would also, should be something that's fun that you're actually looking forward to doing in some way, otherwise you're probably not going to, you

Stephanie: Right.

Otherwise it's just more work.

Marc: Otherwise it's just more work!

Stephanie: It's another obligation.

Marc: Yeah. I mean, this work of transformation, which is my world, but also the world of people in their midlife, whether you want it to happen or not, change is inevitable. You can engage with it or you can let it happen to you. I'd rather do a little bit of design work and maybe not get everything that I want, then kind of, you know, hope for the best.

Stephanie: Right. very much like you, I, grew up sort of not an introspective person. In fact, that has only come to me in the last couple of years, really, since I've been doing this podcast, it's been wonderful for that part of, my growth. I found at midlife, I was, making messes of a lot of things because I had no concept of looking inward.

Even though there was some personal growth in my path, It was esoteric and it was surface. So there was a lot underneath it that was still kind of messy. And so, so this transition, really was, a major surprise to me. and a bit of a mess.

Marc: You told me, and I'm sure your listeners know the story of the 40 drinks at this. I'm hoping they know this story, but one thing that stood out to me when you were telling me that story was, how, I mean, sure you were, not, not going from zero self reflection, but, the way that you were having these conversations, like by design or by accident, by design accident, something, anyway, you were getting all of this reflection in a way that was kind of fun, and, really nourishing in a way.

Stephanie: Right, right. Yeah, there were, there were a number of things that surprised me and made me change how I saw myself, during that project. But the important thing for me personally was it was all wrapped in this very silly bow that made it very easy for me to continue on the path because it wasn't onerous. It wasn't arduous. It wasn't work. It was very, very much play for me. And something I I'm very extroverted. I love connecting with people. So literally finding a way to have drinks with 40 people over the course of a year was like one of the most fun things I could do. So, there was definitely, I think mentioned it to you. It was like, well, there was a spoonful of sugar element of, I didn't know I was getting medicine until many, many, many steps in when all of a sudden the medicine started working and it was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, things are changing and shifting. And what is, what is going on?

But you had some shifts to professionally, in your world. Tell me, remind me a little bit about those. You had a professional situation that

Marc: Oh,

Stephanie: was going to go one way and went another.

But we did this exercise, where he just calls it the impossible game. It's not a very complicated thing. we came up with an idea for what my life might look like, what my legacy might look like. And I had to think of something that is impossible. And what does that mean? It means I have no idea how I'm going to do it. You know, there's things that I can think of that I want to do that I'm like, yeah, I don't know all the steps, but I can kind of see. I had to think of something where I'm like, that actually seems impossible. I'd have to be living a very different life up until this point.

So we came up with this idea of creating, you know, kind of a creative school that involves, you know, also coaching and business education and all this other stuff. So put that away, fast forward, COVID hits. I, you know, I've just had one of the biggest shows of my life at, in Miami with, you know, this gallery in Denver took me down there, a band gallery, great gallery. And COVID hits immediately afterwards.

We move out of the city, and I'm, I don't have my studio. I've got two kids at home. And my wife who does, who works in the world of, of, she's trying to end mass incarceration. Remember, this is the summer of George Floyd, so everything's on fire. Everything is on fire. Home, everything. And I was not, making art.

And then, you know, someone who we know, we were having lunch with this person and she was, you know, sort of saying, Oh, you know, I've got this property up here where we were in, near Woodstock. And she's like, I've got this property. And I think I'm just going to get rid of it. I've got this nonprofit and I've got this property. I don't really know what to do with it. So I think I'm just going to like move. And I was like, connect.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Marc: I've got this idea. Can I tell you about it? She's like, sure. Send me a pitch. So I sent her a pitch and she really liked it and it really made sense with the kind of stuff that she wanted to do and bringing community together and supporting, being radically inclusive and accessible in a number of very specific ways and the way that we were going to build out this art center and these art retreats. And we got started on that project. So I was, now running this organization.

Stephanie: So not quite impossible.

Marc: As it turns out. I mean, could I plan a way to meet a person with the money and resources to just back my project? No. I mean, that's impossible. Except for, because I had done the work to think about it and I kind of kept it in my back pocket, it was available when the opportunity came.

Stephanie: Right.

Marc: You know, I wasn't also beating myself up and spending all my time going where's the opportunity, you know. But it showed up and I was like, you know what i'm gonna ask about. So I got to lead this organization and, not to put too fine a point on it, it did not end well. My relationship with the staff became very toxic. There was therapy involved for me and everybody like it was just it went really south in a way like I can't even feel my face getting heated because it was it was a very difficult experience.

And again, without getting into the details, like, I got very depressed. We went through a bunch of sort of mediation and therapy and at the end of the day, this person was sort of like, how do you want to continue? And I was like, I don't see a way for me to do that. Like, I really appreciate the support and that you want me to be employed. But I think that for my mental health I've got to go. And then I was just in this deep deep depression. So here we are in 20

Stephanie: makes perfect sense, right? This is your dream. This is your impossible dream. You have created it, run it,and then

Marc: yeah. and I mean it's that and it fell apart, right? It's like here it was and it slipped through my fingers and I could see like if we could just get the machine to work right, like we could do so much good

Stephanie: so close.

Marc: You know, but there were people there who just didn't believe that or just weren't bought in on the vision or just were kind of distrustful of me as a, you know, and there was, there was a lot. Anyway, I would, again, without getting into the details, there was a lot there. But part of the difficult thing was that, some of the issues were personal. They were directed at me and not necessarily the work that we were doing.

So this is 21. So I'm literally, I'm 45, at this point. And, you know, there's still nothing happening in the world. It's 21, like, and we built out a space for a studio, so I'm kind of going in there and at some point my wife is like, you don't have to like jump back into art. And I'm like, well, like, well, what else am I going to do?

She's like, you're allowed to go figure that out. I really didn't have a lot of resources for myself, but I had really great support from her and from, coaches and other people in my life, friends.

And so I spent that whole summer really, I actually created an exercise, for myself that really kind of changed the game. And I, I have it up on my YouTube, it's called the Joy Compass. And I, I spent my time really thinking about, okay, well what do I actually love doing? She was like, I don't think you wanna make art.

I was like, that's. I don't understand. I mean that's what I've been doing for 10, 15 years. Like and I've just had the biggest show of my life and you know in December. Like, why would I not go back to art? She said I don't think it was making you happy.

Okay I'm grown up enough and I've done enough of this work that I'm like my absolute resistance to that idea means I should take a look. Like I should go figure out what that resistance is. So I created this exercise and you, you can see it and you can do it, but it's a way of sort of boiling down the things in your life that you like doing.

And I mean that like in a very broad sense, everything, parenting and, you know, not being with friends and work stuff. And I looked at that and I was like, so what's the common thread here? And it really looked a lot like, well, later I realized it looked a lot like coaching. And I was like, I want to help people. I want to work with people. That's what feels good. And there's more to the story. I applied to school for art therapy, but when I, man, I remember looking at coaching programs because, they were less expensive and it was just something I could kind of do while I was waiting for the therapy school to say yes or no..

So, I went to an open house for my program, and I just remember they asked for a volunteer, I volunteered. they coached me for five minutes, and I just remember getting this, like, really great insight for myself. And I was like, okay, this is it, this is it. And when I went, and when I started taking those classes, I just remember going, well, this is the work that I want to do.

And I still feel lit up by the work. I still feel like every, you know, I've had sessions this week Like I feel more energized. After those sessions, then, you know, then I did walking

Stephanie:

Marc: in.

Stephanie: I hear your story and it reminds me of something that happened to me, when I was in college. So I went to Northeastern University, which is built on the co op program. at least when I was there, you go to school as a normal freshman, but then starting your sophomore year, you go year round. You're half the time, in school and half the time working in a co op.

I chose Northeastern specifically so that I could co op at the Boston Globe because my entire goal was to not write for newspapers, but write for the Boston Globe. When I was 14 years old, sitting at my parents house, my dad was a lifelong subscriber to the Globe. So I'd read it every day. And I went, aha. I'm going to write for the Boston Globe. So I chose my college. I did all my co ops and

I,

Marc: didn't know this.

Stephanie: by the time I was a senior, I was actually, I love this. So Northeastern is a five year school. I took six cause I added an abroad program. So I was a sixth year senior and I got the coveted, student reporter position, there was two of them in the newsroom. I spent six months as a general assignment reporter in the newsroom at the Boston Globe, working like, you know, two to 10. And it was the most grueling thing I had ever done in my life. Even though I'm an, natural by birth writer. I was not great in that high pressure situation.

And when I graduated college, even though I would have been working for the globe for 4. 5 years by that time, they would have said, okay, kid, now go get some experience. This is the mid nineties. I would have had to go into Quincy and worked at the Patriot Ledger for like 16, 000 a year for like three or four years before the Globe would consider taking me back. I'd have to go get my experience. So I got to the end of this road at being this student reporter. And I went, I don't want to do this, all this thing that I've been working towards for 10 years.

Marc: yeah.

Stephanie: I don't want to do. And I was able at the time, even from the time I was able to say, sort of shift this and say, you know what? No, no, no. This was my dream and I accomplished it.

Marc: Mm.

Stephanie: Check the box. I did it. Now it's time for a new dream.

Marc: Mm.

Stephanie: Rather than it was a failure. It wasn't a failure. It was absolutely a success. I did exactly what I set out to do. And it turned out that I found out a very important piece of information, which was, I did not want to spend the next 5 years of my life doing what it would take to get to where to do to accomplish that ultimate dream.

And so I was able to course correct in actually a really magical way. But it very similar, right? Like you think like this, the same thing with this artist's retreat for you. Like, right. This is a dream. I want to do this. I want to change the world this way. And, and you get there and it, it falls apart, but you did it.

Marc: I did do it. We did run, a number of retreats and, you know, they were great and they worked the way that we wanted them to. And I wish that we could have built more, but I, but I really, want to come back to what you said, which is, I think really, a really nice nugget for folks who are listening.

When I took that job, I was, you know, I was walking away from art, but then I was going back to art. Then I was walking away from it again. It's like, okay, well, am I giving up? Am I quitting on this thing that was so important to me? And I feel like it's a thing that happens a lot where people don't realize that they're not following their dreams because they're following an old dream.

Stephanie: Yes!

Marc: They're unwilling to update the journal on that. They're like, well, no, I haven't, I haven't done everything that I thought was part of that. Well, Okay, here's the thing. There's some very brilliant, philosopher said that, you start on the path and then the path reveals itself.

So as you're, as you start on the path and you got the student thing and then you saw the path reveal itself and you're like, it's okay to say that, you know what, it's not like me with my, like, You know, I, I was never a blue chip artist. I was, you know, I'm not, a household name.

And that was, you know, part of a dream at some point. And I have friends who are doing that and I see what it takes and I just, my joy comes from other things and if I You know, again, you don't have to have, I hope no one has to hit rock bottom the way that I did to get there.

But yeah, I feel like you have to be willing to update the manual, right? And that's what Midlife does for you

Stephanie: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it just, you actually illustrated it so well because right, you're talking about this impossible dream that you had and you wanted but then when you were talking about finding coaching and going into coaching, your eyes lit up, your voice lit up, it was like, Oh, the dream you thought was the ultimate dream was actually only a step on the path towards the real dream.

Marc: right I think that a lot of people and I know this is a fact a lot of people you know when they do find, the thing that they love doing and usually that's through some amount of trial and error informed trial and error. You're midlife. It's not like you don't know anything about yourself but you know, one of the things I hear a lot is like god I wish I had been doing this for the last 20 years And for the most part, for the most part, that's a bunch of crap too. Like I couldn't be doing what I'm doing when I was 27 instead of 47.

I don't think I could be doing it at 37. It's all of those experiences. It's all of those pathways that led me step onto this one. Now, are there other people who stepped on to a similar pathway earlier? Sure, but that wasn't my path. Now I can spend as much time as you want trying to figure out how I could have done it differently, but here I am.

And this is what I love about the work that I do is, you know, we can talk about that stuff. We're allowed to have our feelings about it. And then what do we want to create from this place? Here's the resources you have, here are the things within your control, here are the options ahead of you.

What's the best? Or as the design of your life folks say, what's the best doable option for you?

Stephanie: Yeah. Oh, Mark, I love this story. I feel like you and I could, probably go nerdy on this for multiple more hours, but, I've promised to only take up so much of your time and our listeners probably want to see the elegant closure of this conversation as

Marc: the end of the yellow brick road.

I would love it if people who are listening did leave you comments and say, you know, if there's stuff that they want to hear more about, so that you can have those conversations. I want to encourage people to be engaged on your podcast is what I'm saying.

Stephanie: Thank you. Thank you so much. I try to do that as well, but I think, all the encouragement that we can give is useful.

Before I let you go. we mentioned briefly in the middle that I'm going to show up as a guest on your podcast in the coming weeks, remind us where that is and where it can be found.

Marc: You can find, all of my stuff at my website at marcscheffcoaching. com. So M A R C S C H E F F coaching. com. All of my stuff is on there. if you go to marcscheffcoaching. com slash links, that's probably just the best place if you just want to jump off to other things.

So the podcast is called the Art of Transformation. that's on most places you listen to podcasts. It's also, I have a sub stack, which is like a separate thing, same name. But Marc Scheff coaching, if you remember nothing else, that's where you can find, I try to keep everything at least up to date there. So you can find your way to, if you want to listen or read or whatever you want to do.

Stephanie: Perfect. Perfect. Well, Mark, thanks so much for spending this time with me and for being so generous in your story and really digging through that midlife transition with me today.

Marc: Yeah, glad to. It's really fun. And,I'm looking forward to, releasing your podcast out there as well. I don't know what's going to come first, but I'm excited for everyone to listen to both because it was, we had, we had a great talk already and we're going over time on this one, I feel like.

Stephanie: Right, right. For you and I, this is part two of our conversation. So you're exactly right. People might need to listen to both of them.

Marc: You're going to have to listen to both everybody. You have to go listen to the podcast. Thank you so much for that support and thank you for having me today. This was really, this was wonderful.