Stephanie: Hello, Philip. Welcome to the podcast.

Philip: Thanks so much Stephanie, happy to be here with you.

Stephanie: I'm really thrilled to have you today. And one of the reasons that I'm thrilled to have you is because you are right in the middle of it, right in the middle of it. As we speak today, we are careening at your 40th birthday and by the time this launches, you will be a newly minted 40 year old.

Philip: Mm hmm,

Stephanie: Is that right?

Philip: it will be,

Stephanie: Yeah, yeah.

Philip: hehehehe,

Stephanie: So it's really interesting to me. I've had about 100 of these conversations and actually more than that now, almost 120.

Philip: Nice,

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. And. It's been a mixture more so the folks who are well, past 40 and have a clear view in the rear view of what the transition looked like. And what the after looks like, but I'm trying to do more talking to folks who are in the middle of it. And one of the reasons I want to do that is because this period of time that we go through around our 40th birthday, plus or minus a few years, it really is a predictable stage of adult development. Because we all go through it in our own way, we feel like it's unique to us. And so I came up with this analogy the other day and I actually kind of liked it. It was, are all snowflakes, right? We are all unique. And so the challenges that we're going through, between 35 and 45, feel so unique to us, but there's not this understanding that we're all part of a snowbank that is this transition. That even though we are, we have our own unique experience of it, it is part of a larger, you know, more universal transformation. So I'm excited to get into it with you.

But let's start at the beginning. Tell me a little bit about the forces that shaped you into the person that you were in your mid thirties. What does your background look like? What brought you to the beginning of your transition period?

Philip: Well, I think it's probably a host of things, Stephanie. I think, you know, We start from ground zero, so to speak, being born in the South, the single mother, I had a younger sister, had grandparents that were past 40, but very much we're looking to retire, but basically they were in this predicament of having to help their daughter raise her kids because the father was present. And that played a role as far as growing up in terms of, what type of person I wanted to be, what type of husband I wanted to be, what type of father I wanted to be, because as I speak to you now, I've been married to my wife, for over 8 years now. And I've been the father to twin daughters for 7 years now. As I approach 40, the thought that inevitably comes up is, what type of man do I want to be as I get into this next stage of life? And for me, I would argue it was something that I wanted to be the exact opposite of what my father was. If there's any sort of, notion of me wanting to be more like somebody, would have been my grandfather. And I think about that even in the midst of, as I'm talking to you today, Stephanie, I'm thinking, you know, I live in Florida and at the time of us doing this episode, it was not too far off that literally days ago, we had a major hurricane My family experienced its first. hurricane in Florida. Thankfully we only had roof damage. But I think that was a particularly pivotal moment for me as I approach 40, because that was a moment where I felt like in preparation, whether it was getting bathtubs full of water in case we needed it, mason jars full of water. But even more so most poignantly, putting on hurricane shutters on our windows outside. And in particular, getting on a ladder to like the second highest level for me near 40. Not as young as I used to be near 40, meaning like, you fall off this ladder,

Stephanie: It's going to hurt.

Philip: Going to hurt. And your recovery time is probably gonna be 3 times as long as it was if you were 20.

Stephanie: That's right.

Philip: But you're on the second, the last ledge on the ladder. It's raining, but, you know, you have to get this shutter up on your house to protect your family. So making that choice of, making a sacrifice personally but the goal of protecting something that's much more important, even more so than yourself,

Stephanie: Hmm.

Philip: which is your family in your house.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: That significant to me because in that same moment, despite it being inconvenient and scary

Stephanie: Yeah,

Philip: that underscored to me what this next chapter for me is about, 40 and beyond. And it really talks about legacy. It talks about caring for those beyond yourself

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: and better understanding those that came before you, in particular, my grandfather of, this is the type of work that he would have done, if for nothing else, he was doing it to protect his family. what he cared about the most that he knew he had a responsibility over and he knew he loved more than anything else. So I say all that to say, like, in the beginning prologue of this, so to speak, is that's really helping me understand what life is about. I've had my young age. I've had my times to experiment and try new things and bell against authority and that sort of stuff and do all these things. fun things. that now I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I survived that.

But now I also look at it is very reflective Stephanie when you think about life expectancy, whether it's just Americans or people in different. different demographics, different are different generations and that You're not seeing a seeing a lot of life expectancy beyond 80.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: Then makes you think, as you approach 40, now I better understand when people say this whole concept of midlife whether that's real for you or not. Why is that significant? Because if that is indeed the case where if I've reached the midpoint of my life, maybe it's a little longer, maybe it's a little less, we don't know.

Now it's a thought of I've done so many things in my life up to these first 40 years, And it's almost like, as I approach 40, now become a race and a challenge to me.

Stephanie: Well, one of my coaches, I love this. He always says that this period of time is when we start measuring our lives from the end instead of from the beginning. Right? So we're looking forward to how much time do I have left versus, oh, I've got all this time and, oh, I've done all these things. So you, it is definitely a shift of perspective of looking at it from a different direction.

Philip: Yeah, it's no longer the sense of, oh, I'm invincible. Let me do all these crazy things just to show that. It's now uh, you know, listen, what gets me is how, how much longer can I keep doing You start to think about this in a sense of, okay, challenge accepted. Can 40 be my midpoint to make it to 80 and beyond?

Okay, challenge accepted. My wife and I celebrated eight years of being married. Can we make it to 50 years being married? Okay, challenge accepted. I have twin daughters that are seven years old. Can I make it to walk my daughter down the aisle, not once, but two of them,

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: and still do it unassisted, unaided,

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: which hopefully would be another 30 years from now.

So now it's the sense of those challenges accepted. You then ask yourself the inevitable question, what do I have to do, who do I have to become, on a day to day basis for to be able to make those Goal. Yeah,

Stephanie: Yeah. I think interesting too, because that's, I'm thinking just of myself, right. Of making changes and, and, and wanting to follow that thread of who do I want to become? And it, for me, it has to, it has to stay so top of mind because you can say, who do I want to become? And let me do the things that would put me on that path. But then the moment you, it's not, it's not top of mind. You sort of fall back into your routine or your comfort or your stuff. Right? So it's, there's a very active element of this, of having to keep it top of mind and retrain your motions, your habits, your thoughts, all of these things to reorient yourself towards that new, who do I want to become? Yeah.

I want to go backwards a little bit though. You, when we first spoke, you told me that you were, a recovering people pleaser. Will you talk a little bit about that? Where'd you pick that up? How has that played a role in your life?

Philip: Yeah. I think even from the beginning, it's like, I live for the approval of my family. Particularly my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather. That extended into wanting to be accepted in school as far as not necessarily happen to be the most popular in the classroom, but definitely one that wasn't the most ignored.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: And so I think whether that's middle school, high school, or going into college, when you think about, romantic relationships in that story, where I find the one for me and that story. You're basically kind of going back and forth on the tug of war as far as do I try to conduct myself in a way that's more likely to be accepted and appreciated by the average person?

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Philip: Or is it more sort of sense of me finding out what is it about me that truly is authentic to me

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Philip: and having enough courage to be that, knowing that that likely will attract certain people to want to be your friends to want to be in your life and may also repel some people

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: your life. And being okay with it. And so I think that that was a big factor for me going up to 40.

Stephanie: Yep.

Philip: And, you know, you see oftentimes and entertainment today, whereas, like, it seems like when a person gets to a certain age, they reach a threshold where they just don't care anymore about what other people think.

Usually that's beyond 40. I've seen many people, it gets to like 60, 70 or 80. it's almost the, sense I always ask myself, Stephanie is like, okay, if it took you that long to get to that point. And I'm witnessing that do I necessarily need to wait another 20, 30 years from now

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: to get to that point now.

And so I think that the recovering people pleaser part comes in where it's like, you know what? Everyone's going through the same battle essentially. Everyone wants to be liked. Everyone struggles with that because no one can be liked by everybody at the same time. So, if we understand that truth to be the case, why not just go ahead and cut the cord on this one and say listen, let's be the type of person that I'm meant to be. And I think it was Dr. Seuss that said something along the lines of, “those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter.”

Stephanie: That's exactly right. Yeah. That's a great one to bring up.

I want to dig into this though. One of the things you said to me when we first spoke, which I found so profound was, when you're not getting an anchor for who you are, for your self esteem, this was sort of a piece of this people pleasing part. Right? Regardless of what people say at school, you know you're loved. You were talking about how you didn't as a young person have that, that center, that core, that, firm center to rely on. How did you craft that? How did you determine you didn't have it? Know it was missing. Know you needed to build it. And then how did you build it for yourself? Because you have a, you've built yourself a beautiful life with your wife and your daughters but that's an effect, not a cause, right?And you can have those things without having the, the solid core. So I'm really curious to know from you, how did you build it? Where did it come from? When did you realize it was missing? Can you dig into that a little?

Philip: Yeah. So I think one of big things that came off top of mind, Stephanie, for me to learn was get a grasp about one's mortality. And I mean by that is everyone who's living going to pass away at some point in time.

Stephanie:

Philip: Everybody including myself,

Stephanie: The great equalizer.

Philip: Father Time is undefeated, they say in sports.

Stephanie: So why is that important? The thing is, is that when I was growing up, a lot of what I hinge as my anchor was the love and appreciation and affirmation of other people. The problem with that, though, is if you believe that everyone will soon pass away. When you put it in someone else's hands, that person may or may not outlive you, meaning a good example would be a huge relationship I had growing up was with my grandmother.

Mm hmm.

Philip: She was significantly older than I was, right? But I put a lot of effort and weight on her love and affection affirmation, which was great for me during the time I was growing up and the time she was around.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: But when she passed,

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: what do you do there when you put so much effort and weight on that? Because that's now gone. You, I can't call my grandmother today and tell her, hey, grandmother, this is what happened during the hurricane.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: I can't call she's not here. Part of what makes death so hard for people is that when it's with a loved one, can't come back to that. You only have memories to suit you at that point. So then the question becomes, okay, if that's the case with my grandmother, and even in case with my own family, at some point, my daughters will not have their father around them or vice versa. God forbid.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: Same thing happens with my wife as well. So I look at it from the standpoint of there has to be something that I can lean on regardless for the rest of my life, And that's what led my anchor to not be in man, so to speak, but more so my faith in God, I would say.

Stephanie: Oh, that's really interesting. I read a spiritual book many, many years ago, that, I think it was a Wayne Dyer book and he was talking about the visual for yourself. And I sometimes think of this, you know, when you're going to lean on something, when you need something to lean on, it's as if you were on, a train, a subway, a subway train. And, you spend time in the Boston area, right? Is it, it's as if we're on the T and you go to reach up and grab that strap to hold on to, and that's connected, for you, it's a, it's God. For others it's, you know, higher self, Universe, whatever, right? We all have our own, version of it.

But that's so interesting because as I asked you this question, I kept, and I know people can't really see this unless I get my act together and put them on YouTube. Right. But I kept really making motions about, in my midriff as if, you know, where, where's your core where what's keeping you solid.

And instead of it being here in your core, it's really, it's a reach up and hold on enough in a faith way.

Philip: Absolutely.. Like everyone's going to have a, emergency break a draw cord, a lever, seatbelt, a safety blanket, a teddy bear.

Yeah.That's the case since we were young. You know, you're looking for something outside of ourselves to give us some sort of validation, some sort of comfort, some sort of security, some sort of unconditional love.

At some point you recognize that, Santa Claus isn't real, teddy bear will get old and fall apart. And the people you love, they will pass away.

Stephanie: So, at some point, you're going to be stuck with yourself. you have to ask yourself, what's something that can go to distance for as long as I'm living? And so that's what I had to realize for myself, what that was and focus on building that, while also appreciating the people I have around me for the time I have left with them.

Tell me, did you grow up in a religious household? Do you have a religious background or did you come to this as an adult at some point?

Philip: Yeah. So for me, I was raised in the South, uh, under the Bible Belt. My grandparents, took us to church. We were Christians. I went to the Baptist church. I was baptized when I was nine or so. And so that was something that kept with me up to this point. I have Bible here that I've taken with me throughout my life journeys for at least 20 years. That was definitely something where I constantly come back to, reflection reading meditation and prayer. Trying to make sense of everyday life circumstances we all experience, the good, the bad and the ugly.

I think that that was also part of my grandparents legacy, of of leaving that with me of wanting to have a relationship with a higher power, because they also recognize that was helpful for them.

Stephanie: Mhm

Philip: And they felt like that was true for them and they cared enough about it about me impart to me how important education is and also a relationship with Jesus Christ. So that's what they imparted to me, and that's something that has been helpful for me. And I also want to impart to the next generation as far as my kids are concerned, that I share with my wife.

Stephanie: Yeah. But when did you go from, so if religion has been a constant in your life,

Philip: mm hmm.

Stephanie: when did you make that transition, that leap, that mental leap from leaning on things that are external to you

Philip: Mm

to leaning on this faith that's internal to you? When did that penny drop? I would say when my grandparents passed away,

Stephanie: Okay. And when was that?

My grandparents, they were married for quite some time. It was to the point that once my grandmother passed first, my grandfather didn't see much reason of living because his lifelong life partner was no longer here, which now even at eight years married, I understand if something were to happen to my wife, I would have a tough time really figuring out how to keep going. And he shortly passed A waywithin the year of my grandmother passed And so I recognize during that time that the people that imparted so much me, they passed on, the transition And what meant was, like I said, I can't pick up the phone and call them. I can't drive over to the house and have dinner with them anymore. They're gone.

All you're left with are memories. And so the penny drop for me was at some point, Philip, you can't rely on other people to be all things to you or to be the standard bearer as far as having a relationship beyond yourself. At some point, you have to cultivate it for yourself because you have it in other people, you're basically just renting them until it's time for them to go home.

Stephanie: Right,

Philip: So that was where it came off to me. It's like, okay. I need to be more into understanding what this is for me, in cultivating something that's strong and reliable and persistent for me

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Philip: that is not based on one particular person to lean on. I think that's what made it, my faith, even stronger as a result, because it wasn't dependent on another person for that.

Stephanie: Yeah, That makes sense.

Philip: But just recognizing that just, hey, like, because everyone here has a shelf life at some point, they have to go. probably best to keep something internally for yourself, at least for the time that you have So I left here.

Stephanie: So that process began when your grandparents died. You were in your very late 20s just coming up on 30.

Philip: Hmm, mm

So tell me What the last five years have looked like for you. What kind of transitions, what kind of shifts have happened in your life? Because it sounds like you, you made, you found this center. You deepened that faith in your late twenties, early thirties. So now that you're coming up on 40, I'm curious to know, since that, I'll call it that box was checked. What was the next evolution of Philip, that 35 to 40 timeline? I think that 35 to 40 year timeline is, for lack of a better word, a crucible.

Stephanie: Okay. Tell me what, tell me more about that.

Philip: Well, I think it's one where, you know, oftentimes you find out what somebody is truly made out of. Often people think about it in terms of, purification by fire or a sense of, really getting to the heart of things, what your core is, as you said before.

Stephanie: Mm-Hmm.

Philip: When things start falling off, the pruning I think that, you know, in those 5 years, those were some of the toughest years of my life. And that's outside of my grandparents passing. During that time, like I had a business that was going well for me, had a number of employees I employ was doing well for myself and my family.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: So it came across a one anniversary as far as actually stopping operations, stopping the business. And during, when you include that year in the 5 years, it's like losing a loved one.

Stephanie: For sure.

Philip: And, you know, it's almost like I was listening to a, mentor of mine saying something along the lines of like, when you lose a business, something that matters a lot to you, it's almost like surviving a car accident. You might have made it through, but there's a lot of memories and things mentally that you're probably going to be experiencing that people can't see on the outside.

Stephanie: Yeah,

Philip: And so I think that, you know, reliving a lot of those moments of trying to keep things afloat, making sacrifices personally to care for others, uh, whether they recognize it or saw it or not, even having moments of thinking that this was all worth it. You know, whether once you throw in the towel on this business or throw in a towel on life itself, because things were just that hard. I think those were things that I experienced that it's kind of the one of of those things that you honestly wouldn't want to wish on another person, even if they were your worst enemy.

And so I think that that was a lot of what was going on during those 5 years, and then relocating, then basically start a new chapter. And then figuring out for yourself, what's your next step? You don't want to wallow in a sob story that was genuine. It happened. It hurt. All those things are true. But if you're blessed to have another day that you're able to live in freedom here in America, the question then becomes at some point, okay, what, what's next? You were spared for a reason. You're here for another day. What do we do at this point? I think that that's a big part of this year leading up to 40 of understanding that. And getting a good sense of what is like me beyond just your own achievements and aspiration, but those that matter a lot to you. And then kind of seeing how that focus and that shift, and change things to help you figure out, okay, what is that second, half of your life?

How do you make sense of that? What is your act two? What is your second act? Because a lot of people are going off this, like, this is it. And if it doesn't work, there's nothing else. It's that one trick pony sort of thing that people get caught up into. And one of the things you experience with life is, for the most part, everyone experiences bad times. Not everyone's life is a crystal staircase to the top. It's not a straight line to success. There's a lot of detours. There's a lot of ups and downs. And a lot of people don't see that because they live their lives in an alternate reality on social media, we'll just say.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: You only want to show highlights, even if it's just 4 times of the year. But then you ask yourself what happened to those 361 days of your life that year. And so I think that that's a big part of it. And what was helpful for me going through that is understanding that there's a purpose beyond just myself. There's people that depend on me beyond just myself.

What's also helpful is understanding that, despite what you see in the news and in social media, everybody goes through bad times. It may not be the exact way you've experienced it. Not everyone has a business that's gone through tough times, but people have lost jobs, lost loved ones, lost their health, been, been an actual car accidents, been through hurricanes. Lost, you know, this recent one for me is really telling for me, because like there's people that couldn't even be on a podcast like this if they wanted to, because they don't have electricity,

Stephanie: Right. Or a roof.

Philip: Or roof over their head. I think a greater sense of gratitude and perspective really ushers in. And understanding when you look beyond just yourself and what the world around you is like, you ask yourself, where do you fit in perspective to that? And then also, hey, you know what? I have another opportunity at this. I have another at bat with this day called today. What do we do with that?

Stephanie: Oh man, I feel you. Mm hmm. I'm a small business owner and, I don't have kids, but I always talk about my business as my baby. And I always mark time by my baby. And in February, my baby will be able to vote. It will be old enough to vote. So, I understand. I can put myself in your shoes and think of, how devastating it would be for that to not work. For that to come crumbling down. Cause like you, I, I have a team that depends on, You know, I like to say the business sustains, six households, you know, it's,

Philip: You're paying multiple rent multiple car payments. That was something that for me as a small business owner, and I recognize myself, like, listen, this isn't just people's paychecks you're paying, you're paying mortgages.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: Paying rents, car payments,

Stephanie: Yep.

Philip: Kids, tuition, diapers, groceries. it puts a lot of things in perspective when you look at it from that standpoint, as far as how you go about, running your business, because it's not just about you, you recognize there's a lot of other people that are, playing a role, not just in how well the business goes, but in the decisions you make on a day to day basis.

Stephanie: Yeah. So tell me this. Did you have some part of your identity wrapped up in the business? Did you have identity issues, crises, as the business was faltering and crumbling and shutting down?

Philip: I would say so, because I think part of it for me growing up was a sense of achievement. You know, looking at yourself as far as your success stories, your highlights, your resume, where you went to school, the awards you've won, the jobs you've worked at, people you rub shoulders with.

Stephanie: Yeah, your successes.

Philip: Yeah. And so I think that to have a failure be a part of it, and not have it in the right perspective, and understand that that's just how life works, Philip.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: At some point, I remember my mom telling me, she's like, look, Philip, you're so used to success, I worry. And this was like probably 20 years ago, was around the time where the great recession happened. And the big failure for me was being laid off,

from working in financial services on Wall Street due to the recession. And the concern was, like, you're so used to success, Philip, I really concern myself with how how do you deal when you get your first major failure?

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: And emphasis is on first. Emphasis on major. And that was something I had to, like, realize and figure out for myself. How do I deal with this?

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Philip: And not go off on a deep end and just say, I quit.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: Right,This is not playing a video game, where you can just reset the game, throw the game controller on the floor, and just run off and just do. Like this is your life you're dealing with. You can't run away from that. Or at least I would ask you not to, ultimately.

So I think, yeah, I think that's one where it's just, you know, identity, that was something that I wrestle with, where having to understand, look, your track record and your identity, if you go off that basis it's not going to be flawless.

Stephanie: There's going to be some bruises, sore spots, some, marks you wish you could remove surgically,

Philip: some things that you wish nobody heard about or read about or seen. but once again, when you put it in perspective, everybody has that.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: You just don't know of everything because people are very good about sharing things they want to share and hiding the things they don't want to share, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

So, I think that was helpful for me to do that, but also understand too, being to get to a point, Stephanie, where you can talk about it it shows not so much a sense of maturity, but more so of healing. And also in terms of some sort of, love for people that you may or may not meet.

Stephanie: Hmm.

Philip: Because oftentimes showing where you have been cut, where have you bled, where you've been bruised, not for the sake of some sort of pity party to be gaining sympathy from, but more so to share with people, as you said before, I feel you

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: because I've been there. I've been in somewhere similar. It may not be exact.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: But oftentimes you feel more comfortable to share with somebody if they've been through a similar journey.

Stephanie: And isn't it so interesting? this is just bubbling as you're saying this. You can create deeper connections with people by sharing your bumps, your bruises, your failures, than you can by sharing your successes.

Philip: Yeah. Cause I think part of it is, it's like the tip of the iceberg type of effect. Yeah. I'm not the type of person that enjoys surface level conversation. Probably why my social circle is so small. You know, and part of it is the sense that the people that I really gravitated towards, and relish their conversations when their names show up on my phone, and so are the people that you've had those moments where you've been open and honest and vulnerable and transparent with, on both ends. It's kind of a chicken or the egg type of question or dilemma. You can't really get to that point unless you find someone that's willing to share that with you. And you don't get to a point where you're willing to share that with somebody unless that's a person that you feel is trustworthy to properly handle what you have to share, or you have a sense that there's going to be a sense of reciprocity

Stephanie: Yeah.

Philip: that they'll feel comfortable sharing what they're in with you. So there's a mutual sharing and not a one way transmission of it.

Stephanie: It requires a level of bravery because you don't know if that other person is going to reciprocate, if they're going to be able to, if it's going to be a good match. Right? I was having this conversation with a friend recently it was a relationship that they had been building. And then there was a, break, right? A break in trust, you know, a, a misconnection. And my friend went to repair it and the other person didn't respond in the way that my friend wanted them to. So, you know, we were having a conversation about it and it was like. It's okay. Not everybody is going to be the person you build that, deep, wonderful relationship with.

And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that relationship. You just know that's sort of the set level there. Right. You're not going to go deeper with that person. You're not going to build more of that, that vulnerability. You're not, you know, you've shared as much as you're going to share, you know, of your, of your soft stuff.

So, yeah, so it requires an element of bravery because you just don't know which of the people you reach out to, you, you try to make a bridge with, you don't know which of them are going to be the, the ones that reach back.

Philip: Yeah. and and along with that to Stephanie, I would say it also takes perseverance because no one hits at 100%.

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Philip: What does that mean? Okay. That means that you're likely not going to find that person that connects with you, that appreciates the gift of your confidentiality and your trust and your vulnerability, from the first person. Not likely or second, maybe in the third or onward.

Stephanie: Right.

Philip: So, what comes out of that is out of that, of you being burned, of you not having a good experience from this. You ask yourself the question. Do I try again with somebody else? Anybody that has experienced heartbreak in a relationship can resonate with the fact that you probably had an instance that when your heart was broken, you want it to withdraw from the complete entirety of the situation altogether.

Stephanie: Right. And never do it again.

Philip: And never put yourself out there. And say, I rather take the risk of being alone because at least know myself,

Stephanie: yeah,

Philip: than to experiment and trust somebody else that could potentially break my heart. And we're just talking about romance and love here. We're not even talking about friendship

Stephanie: Right,

Philip: or finding people to partner with in business,

Stephanie: because that also plays a role there too. As a business owner, like who you partner with, it can bode well for you. It could do the opposite. If you're working in an organization, who you're paired up with could be your best work buddy. It could be the bane of your work existence.

Right.

Philip: So there's always trial and error embedded in the process. But what comes with that too, is also the question of, if you have a sense of understanding, there's sometimes it's going to work and there's sometimes there aren't. But it's always easy to keep going when things are going well. It's when they don't go well that you ask yourself, will you have enough courage and bravery try again?

Stephanie: Right.Well, it's, it's, strikes me. There's a book that, a different coach recommended to me years and years ago, a book called Transitions and this book sort of lays out the process that we go through with transitions. I came back to it within the last year or so because of the podcast and everything I'm, exploring in these conversations. And the process, there is an ending, and then there is a gray space, and then there is a beginning. And if you, really sort of think back on, your own experiences, you'll find that, you know, most of the time that is true.

And so, for me, based on this conversation, I feel like you are in your middle space, you're in your gray space. You've had this very distinct ending. You actually had multiple endings. You had an ending with your business, and ending with where you lived. And now you've made this big move. I'm very curious to see what comes for you in the next couple of years, whether whatever you're doing right now is it, or if this is the middle space and you're moving towards something. I'm real curious to hear about your next couple of years, Philip.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So we'll you come back in a year or two and tell me how things are going and work through this transition with me?

Philip: Yeah. Happy to do so.

Stephanie: I love it. Great. Well, on that note, then I just want to say thank you so much for joining me today for exploring these meaty, meaty topics and for being so generous with your story.

Philip: My pleasure. Thank you for having me, Stephanie.